scottopic: (obama bitch!)
[personal profile] scottopic
I know some of my friends out there are not Obama supporters, whether it be for McCain, Barr, Nader or some other candidate - or even if the reasoning is "not-Obama." Go with yourself! This also includes my lovely friends and acquaintances who adhere to "None of the above" because they prefer looking at extra-systemic methods and ideologies. Please keep on with your path - you provide a needed aspect in the whole conversation as well.

I'll not take the position of "you're so off my friends list" for disagreeing with me, even if I feel extremely strongly on this matter - if I trust you at all, I trust you in good faith to have reasons of your own for your political beliefs, for the most part, along with your fair share of misconceptions, probably similar in proportion to my own.

I do want to make one thing clear about where I do draw a line, and for which I will happily give you an "Up Yours". Any of you who bring up bullshit about "The Messiah", "The One" or "drinking the Kool-aid", up yours. Really. Fuck off. It's become an opposing talking-point about "Obamabots", blind followers and "boy, won't you stupid liberals be surprised when you find out he's just another politician!"

No one thinks Barack Obama is the Messiah, or that he'll do everything perfectly. He'll piss off everyone at some point, even his most ardent supporters. He's pretty much said so. My boss just mentioned he expects Obama to disappoint him by being too conservative in the name of bridging gaps between parties. And beyond ideology, he'll outright fuck-up.

But the pseudo-cynical regard that people have just because people (myself included) dare to be enthusiastic about our presidential candidate is contemptible. Screw us for being excited. Screw us for hoping that things may change, that this may mean different approaches which may work better, that someone closer to our ideals may get into office. Screw us for believing that this may bring about new ideas, a shift from the tired Vietnam-era version of "Left v. Right", the first national figure in my lifetime that has not only bolstered my belief in the United States, but made me want to serve as I can, to look not for how I can cut down "the Enemy" and instead work towards common goals and finding solutions to the problems we face. Screw me for having hope, which people denounce as "just a word" - but these people obviously have no clue what words can do.

Unsurprisingly, it's not been Republicans who've thrown this at me the most - it's been the "independents" who mutter about "all politicians are the same" that then turn with their jade-colored glasses and sneer at excitement, at passion, at belief, no matter how much we try to present both a reasonable case and a shared ideal. It's not even the attitude alone, it's the desire to spread your dread contagion to me and others who've found a means of escape. So please - plop down on your couch in your nest of cynicism, keep building those walls and just atrophy in your own apathy. Those of us who give a fuck will be doing our best, and I'd rather work with someone with whom I respectfully disagree but actually cares, than any number of milquetoast flat-liners who invest their energy in dragging people into their hole than even imagining the possibility that people can make a difference.

Disagree with me as you will on policies, candidates, philosophies and methods.
Get smarmy pseudo-cynical at me (because it's the easy and lazy route, to be quite honest)?
There's the door. The rest of us have work to do.

Date: 2008-10-31 04:28 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile]
Thanks for posting that. I so agree.

Date: 2008-10-31 04:29 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile]
Word the fuck up.

With the exception of one extreme right-winger, I've gotten more shit from libertarians of all people than rethugs for being for Obama. WTF. I'm fucking sick of all this shit.

Date: 2008-10-31 06:49 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile]
Honestly, it's prolly because a lot of us are jealous, or bitter. They may desperately be trying to change your mind to "their side". I'm a Libertarian, but I know it's too late for "our side" to make president. As I said, I'm still voting that way, because hopefully if enough of us make waves, next election we'll have a third party option. And again, as I said below, more power to the Obama supporters, they're backing the better choice of the two, in my opinion. As for why the repubs don't give you shit, they're probably still just smug enough not to care, they think they're invincible lately, but then, a lot of them thought Bush has been doing a good job, even here at the end.

Date: 2008-10-31 04:29 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile]

Date: 2008-10-31 04:33 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile]
Very well said. I agree 100%.

It's going to be amazingly refreshing to vote for a candidate that a) I believe in, and b) has a snowball's chance in hell of winning.

Date: 2008-10-31 04:34 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile]
That should be "more than a snowball's chance in hell of winning."

Date: 2008-10-31 04:38 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile]
I admit to being a Republican douchebag but I'm voting for Obama. I don't think he's the Messiah, I just think he'll have a lot of crap to fix when he gets in office.

Happy H-Day to ya, man.


Date: 2008-10-31 04:52 pm (UTC)
ineffabelle: (black_hole)
From: [personal profile] ineffabelle
I think this may turn out to be part of a new evolution in our democracy in certain ways. I've called it "pathocracy" before. Like, those who give a shit will end up relatively powerful. At the same time, the non-participants will likely divide into two camps:
The Refuseniks - people like me who are non participatory for our own reasons, usually a project of active withdrawal from the machine
The Apathetic - within this camp will develop the odd group of "vocally apathetic"

At any rate, it will be very interesting to have a Generation X president. He might just shake up the powers that be in unexpected ways. I think people tend to underestimate the generational antipathy between baby boomers and Gen X.

Date: 2008-10-31 04:58 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile]
Well said!

"If I could change your mind,
I wouldn't save you from the path you wander."

Date: 2008-10-31 05:23 pm (UTC)
lindsaybits: (GOP GOP GOP CHIDA GOP)
From: [personal profile] lindsaybits
You are so my fucking hero. Thank you.

Date: 2008-10-31 05:29 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile]
I love you a little more for posting this.

Date: 2008-10-31 05:36 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile]
watching him wednesday night in his primetime commercial, i was struck with the feeling i have when i talk about this election and Obama. that we are on edge of something major here. that this is about as close as our slacker generation will come to something radical or changing like the 60's and those that pushed for change during that time. and i'm damn proud to be part of it.

but watching him wednesday night, all i could think was, he HAS to win. he has too. there is no other choice. if he doesn't win, we will be lost. this country will continue into the downward spiral it is on and we will never recover.

come tuesday night/wednesday morning... i will be in tears one way or another. either ones of joy and having my faith renewed in people, or sadness because of what the future will hold.

Date: 2008-10-31 05:38 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile]
fwiw and tangentially, gaming the vote is a great read

Date: 2008-10-31 05:51 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile]
Agreed. I think it's great to see people get excited and rally behind a figure they see as a proponent of change. Mind you, I personally don't think Obama is necessarily "The Answer" and I do have some concerns about what will happen if he's elected, but honestly? I'm a helluva a lot less concerned about what happens if Obama is in than I am McCain. I think the country would indeed fall apart faster under McCain, or god forbid he die in office and Palin take over ::shudder::
I personally am a Libertarian, and will be voting that way. I know that it won't mean we'll win, I just want enough of us to vote to make a third party and actual option.
I say, if it's your thing, go on with your bad Obama-supportin' self! It's nice to see people actually giving a shit again and not just rolling over another election year and taking the shaft.

Date: 2008-10-31 06:16 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile]
Indeed - it's all about the respectfulness.

Friends can disagree vehemently with me - hell, friends can even say that, in their opinion, subject X isn't something they personally feel inclined to be bothered about for reason Y and that they don't really understand what all the fuss is about... but they understand and respect that I differ from them in that respect. But anyone who (in however subtle a manner) sneers, puts down and throws abuse at me for merely holding the cares and concerns that I do is no friend of mine.

It must be exciting (but also terrifying) to be in the States right now, I would imagine. Reading so much about the elections over this side of the pond, part of me wishes I was though...

Date: 2008-10-31 06:24 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile]
Coke is "The One," I drink my own Kool-aid (Celtic green kool-aid, that is), and well, Louis Farrakhan has said he thinks Obama is The Messiah but I don't believe him.

People have indeed gotten a bit nasty this election. I'm with realrealgone on this one, except that it isn't exciting to be in the States right now. It kinda veers back and forth between between lame and scary.

Date: 2008-10-31 06:25 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile]
I get concerned that people are allowing their passion to cloud their judgment and critical thinking. That's all I have to say on the matter, really.

Date: 2008-10-31 08:20 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile]
Part of the inspiration was your post about candidates, for what it's worth. I think it's a perfectly understandable position, and thanks for giving a crap.

Date: 2008-10-31 07:15 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile]
Not sure to what extent this is aimed at me since I am A) an independent, B) definitely a cynical optimist and C) not an Obama supporter and D) I did make reference to him not being the chosen one of Dune because his name alone was *not* a killing word. If it wasn't aimed at me boy am I going to be sorry for what I'm about to post.

But goes.

Where do you get off?

I've read more insulting derogatory "hey let's use age and sex to belittle our political opponents" on this LJ than any three episodes Top 5 Countdown episodes of Keith Olberman combined. Maybe even four. It's not just the words - you take the time and care to make graphical representations of your opinions of your opponents, and by proxy their supporters. You also link in a host of other stuff that is a non-stop belittlement of McCain and Palin.

Not on this LJ per se, but on others, I've seen the word cunt used more often in the last three months to describe Palin than I have in the five years I worked as a bouncer.

I've taken it with good grace where I can, argued policies and differeing viewpoints as others, have been accused of having homo-erotic affiliations with McCain because I happen to agree with him at times.

And you know what - more power to you! That's what you do, and you do it well. And you know what - a lot of that shit you do is damn funny. I'm not sure if you're always 100% dead serious when you post up McCain as the crypt thing or Palin as a screaming she-devil, but I think it's amusing and can find the humor in when political opponents take shots at the candidates I support.

But it cuts both ways, and that's not a bad thing. If I post something in my LJ about my concerns that Obamamania is going over the top (as I did in the satirical Obama-swoon post), or make a joke about his name being the killing word or not - guess what? As always it's not mean to stick a fork in your eye, gouge it out and have it for dinner. I'm presenting an opinon, trying to use at times some humor, not always hitting the mark, and still raising concerns where I think concerns need to be raised. If you want to invite me not to comment about politics on your LJ - I won't. But I won't stop commenting on politics, foreign affairs, the economy or whatever on my LJ just because the cause de-jour has shifted from neo-con to Obama-con.

I'm going to continue doing it.

So grow a backbone and stop letting the opinions of others challenge or threaten your own optimism. It's an amazing awesome thing you have that optimism, and I know you'll probably keep your eyes open as you go in and serve (hell if you want I can drop your name in a few circles I work within now and maybe move things along). But your eagerness for "your guy" will not stop my cynnicism at a political process that produces a lot of "guys" most of whom end up screwing up this country rather than helping it. I'll call it out where I see it. I took extreme exception with the advocates amongst my friends LJ who were pumping the Iraq War - I did it at risk to my friendship because I thought it was important at the time to take a stand against that, against torture, against FISA and all the other crap. And if I need to take stands going forward that put you and me at odds I'm not worried about it. Winds shift, times change and it's not that I'm sitting here on a couch with my thumb up my ass hating everything - if I did I wouldn't bother posting about it, discussing about it, trying to find a better way. I just don't happen to agree that Obama *is* the better way - I've not been sold on this Colin Powell presentation either.

And if this wasn' me. Well then how 'bout that World Series?

Tim C.
From: [identity profile]
It had nothing to do with you.

If my apology for being snide at you wasn't taken in sincerity, I have no clue how else to transmit that idea. I wish I hadn't said it. There's not much more I can say or do to try to mend that, and it's been brought up multiple times since I outright said I was over the line. Do you want a certificate? I've made a sincere effort since then to engage you in your political points and postings with a more open mind and congenial approach because I knew I flew off the handle...should I stop?

Further, the implication of what I've done in this journal,
it's not just per se that I've not called Sarah Palin a 'cunt', I've not come close. I found the icon and thought it funny - she's the one who wanted the tough, take-no-prisoners image, Pitbull-with-lipstick, moose-killin' type. Perhaps the lowest blow was the McCain as Rev. Kane, but he really did remind me of him, especially the Green Screen Speech. It's how he looks, right or wrong. Not the highest of political commentary, I admit. I took your comments on "Obamania" (insofar as I remember them) by the same token. I get worse from others, all part of the game.

I just scanned all of my entries this year and really, perhaps you've read my posts that are so Private that I couldn't even read them. I've been pro-Obama from early on, but think most of the postings have been in his favor as opposed to critical of McCain or other opponents (those that have been are less than 3 months old, so I'll leave the calender function to you if you wish). So, really, step off. Yeah, there's been plenty of ugliness from pro-Obama/anti-Palin supporters, and I've been pretty harsh in my criticisms (though explicitly not ageist/sexist), but unless you've been privy to venues outside of Livejournal in which I communicate, you've not seen it here.

Where do you get off

Okay, I'll play:
Did you even read this?

I was all-but-cheering for people who are supporting the candidates other than the one I support.
This wasn't about McCain/Palin - I consider them horrible candidates. I honestly consider McCain a hair better than Bush, but even in that sense, I believe it's too little movement in the direction I think is needed to address the important issues, primarily the environment and civil liberties. But my conclusion and every bit was not to be critical of them or their supporters in this post, and I carefully crafted it to not be against McCain supporters in the slightest, but as I laid out in pretty much every paragraph: it's about armchair cynicism. The pervasive and smelly belief that nothing will change, then go out to prove it by doing nothing.

So grow a backbone and stop letting the opinions of others challenge or threaten your own optimism.
Thanks for the willful misread.

This is my response to the direction social interaction. I'm not apologizing for being pissed off by it, by the rudeness of friends, and can't even parse where I'm supposed to be ashamed for ranting a bit in a place where people are otherwise "allowed" to drone for 20 paragraphs about how their houseplant doesn't love them anymore. I'm somewhat floored with how to respond beyond this to this insult. People can and do challenge all day long, it's the arena of ideas. And this is my response: aggressive apathy is as big of a blight as neo-conservatism. I consider it 'worse' than supporting Republicans.
From: [identity profile]
As I said if this wasn't directed at me I'd be really sorry for having written it. That's the problem with one way delayed communication. But I'll fess up to it and plunge whole head in to double down and defend my words were necessary, and apologize where I got it wrong.

First I apologize for taking it personally if that was not your intent. I also apologize for not seeing where you backed down after telling me to go down on McCain. I took a cold shower and went 'elsewhere' for awhile on that thread - a long while. I've gone back to that post and see where you put it right after that, my bad for bringing it up again.

As for the content of your LJ. I'm not saying it's a horrible thing, but it has been very belittling of McCain-Palin, and NOT on policies or ideas;
scroll the comments:
2008-10-03 01:32 pm UTC (link) Track This i just wanna punch you for posting that cunt's picture

(emphasis is mine, you can scroll down more comments on flashing tits for beads)
"with an apology to real librarians"

I guess I could've posted a picture of Obama clutching Communist Manifestos with the title "with an apology to real blacks". I'm sure you'd get the humor in it. But would I have been applauded by "our" crowd for finding a funny hip way to get my message across?

There's also a crypt thing picture post you made that is chock full of age-discrimination content that I can't find right now. Again had I posted a picture of a 20's something actor in black face, claimed it was Obama, and then a bunch of us made jokes on his race (as opposed to his age) I'm not sure this would have gone over swimmingly.

I'm just saying watch which rocks you are throwing about how this LJ has been about policies, issues and ideas and how disgusted you are with others belittling your candidate.

If in my haste I assigned to you the cynnicisms of others who posted on your LJ under your comments and pictures then again I'll take a mea culpa.

I've tried to walk the agonizingly painful line of someone who supports a candidate but is not whole in with the kool aid. I posted my disdain of the character assassination attacks on Obama by McCain under the "guilt by association" thread.

You and I agree on the apathy - and that's probably where you hit my hot button since I took it as an attach that "written cynnicism" = "obvious apathy."

No I'm not volunteering on election day (sadly as predicted I'll be traveling). But I have volunteered for three campaigns to date (none of which made it past primaries) and I think that patriotism is one part vocalization, three parts participation and the rest sacrafice. So that you're willing to sacrafice a day of your work and time to volunteer pretty much gives you a pass on anything you might want to post in my book.

I'm not saying this to insult you - I'm saying these things to challenge you. And if I'm off base I'll apologize early and often with all sincerity.

We *do* need an outlet other than LJ to interact with. You're one of the more creative + businessy (which is a rare combination) folks I've ever run across and I'd love to be able to work with a project, nearly any project, with you on again. But barring that maybe we could grab dinner or lunch or something on the off chance when I'm in Atlanta again or if you're in WAR let's find a server and go smash some shit some time.

I'm going to walk away now from what obviously are hot emotions on both sides and get back to this at another time. Have a good Halloween!

Tim C.
From: [identity profile]
Good idea, because while I appreciate the statement about wanting to be more conciliatory, the temptation to poke with a stick more is just a bit much, I guess.

And if we shall play tit-for-tat for responses by others within our journals, I'll do some digging if you like. I suppose my voiced support for you against the rabid-anti-everything-Republican guy didn't register?

I'm just saying watch which rocks you are throwing about how this LJ has been about policies, issues and ideas and how disgusted you are with others belittling your candidate.

I said what?
I made no magnanimous claim of being the All-Policy Journal.

I have NO idea where how you can compare the librarian picture to a blackface picture, and the statement "real librarians" to "real blacks."
She's not a librarian! Obama is black? What the fuck? The librarians on my friends list (as far as I can tell) are horrified by Palin. Come off the false equivalencies - the comparison would have been (if it showed Obama as a Communist librarian) "real librarians" or "real Communists." If people want to take offense that I believe Palin to be a pro-censorship theocrat, that's the point.

The crypt thing post was the Reverend Kane reference I mentioned in my reply. It was the sole point. He's creepy looking for me. I do not apologize for this.
Here's the post:
His being old is part of how he looks, of course. So is being bald and white-haired, and a bad habit of making rictus-grins on camera.

Further, make an argument about how race can a possible hindrance to one's ability to govern, and I'll call it a fair formula. I've made no argument on the point of McCain's age, and haven't used it to frame my voting decision, but it's not the same thing.

Just ageist/sexist? No, sir. Questioning her applied intelligence/stupidity in this campaign, her style of governance or her love of turtles? All the live-long day.

Date: 2008-10-31 08:17 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile]

Disagree with me as you will on policies, candidates, philosophies and methods.
~I don't know how much clearer I have to be than that.~ It's the entire point of the post.
I'm volunteering on Election Day to drive people to polls and provide other support. It's not a big deal, not exactly a Rosa Parks moment. But I don't give a shit if I give bottled water to a McCain supporter or give a ride to a Barr supporter, it's that people who want to vote get to vote and that they give a damn. That's what this was about. Your involvement and interest (as far as I can tell, extrapolating from your LJ activity, our sole point of contact to my knowledge) is pretty active, so if you came to mind at all, it was on the side of giving a damn. So while I've not questioned whether you have your thumb up your ass, I do get the benefit of you questioning my motives and calling me spineless.


If that's how you want it to be, it's your call to make in regards to political discussions where you and I might cross paths.
I thought it was working, as in your post about campaign financing.

I'll reevaluate.
(deleted comment)

Date: 2008-10-31 08:26 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile]
I'd have a harder time accepting that. It's part of the Republican platform I can't swallow. It's about explicit discrimination. As far as I know, the conservatives/Republicans I'm friends with hold a view of agreeing with most policy (usually fiscal), but hoping this aspect will change one way or another, or give an argument about how the state shouldn't be involved with marriage at all (a position I consider very weak, since if someone supports these policies, they know damn well that in effect it means discrimination).
Since this impacts myself and others I know directly, I take it a little more personally - some dear friends were just married in California, and this will fuck with that.

Date: 2008-10-31 08:03 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile]
Thank you for posting this. It has helped rekindle my own passion ... I have known that I wanted Obama to be president since watching the first Democratic debates in July of 2007, so it’s pretty cool to see it actually happening.
That said, I find myself oscillating between being extremely excited and having tons of faith that having a forward-thinking, more highly conscious human being of diverse background in the White House will be great for our society, and feeling the total cynicism about politics and government in general and doubting that one man can really make a difference. But I think in the end, my hope weighs in with a little more gusto- even if he is only able to make just one tiny little improvement and not a huge overhaul of our social system, then it’s still a step in the direction I want to go in! Why am I sometimes afraid to believe in what I really want? () A surefire way to never get you what you want is to never believe it is possible. Duh. So yeah… FUCK CYNICISM! GO OBAMA!

Date: 2008-10-31 08:22 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile]

Date: 2008-10-31 10:50 pm (UTC)
adrienmundi: (Default)
From: [personal profile] adrienmundi
I assume any national candidate is out to fuck me over, but there are huuuuuge differences in style. One is a creepy, Crypt Keeper style Viagra and hate fueled zombie dry grudge fuck, but Obama; Obama is smoooth. Obama knows he's going to fuck you, and knows you know he's going to fuck you, but first he's going to wine and dine you, going to seduce you to the smooth, smooth strains of Barry White and Al Green, going to get in you the mood, treat you right, like the classy lady you are so that when the fucking comes (and it will come) it's anticipated, not a surprise, and enjoyable. Because it's not just about hitting you then moving on, oh no; Obama wants you to know you've been fucked, and been fucked right, because he'll keep your number, and give you a call next time he's in town. And you know, he probably means it, which makes you giggle a little in spite of yourself.

Whew, I know which I'd pick. Now, if you'll excuse me...

Date: 2008-10-31 10:57 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile]
I'm so glad you wrote this.

Awwwww yeahhhhhhh

Date: 2008-10-31 11:06 pm (UTC)
adrienmundi: (Default)
From: [personal profile] adrienmundi
From the creators of The Adrien and Janiene Show!

Date: 2008-11-01 06:04 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile]
Wow, that's hot.

Um... yeah...

Date: 2008-11-01 06:06 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile]
Can I borrow this?

Date: 2008-11-02 05:43 am (UTC)
adrienmundi: (Default)
From: [personal profile] adrienmundi
Absolutely, wear it in good health :)

Date: 2008-11-02 08:33 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile]
Thanks! It's so rare that I get to mix my sex with my politics.

Date: 2008-10-31 11:58 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile]
Haven't you heard? The new corporatism trumps classical politics.

No I'm serious.

The only thing that is saving is that people with power are still human and therefore too retarded to understand the concept of it.

So therefore, politics as we know it will continue to exist for some time simply because those who really do wield the power don't understand the situtation.

Make sense? No?

Ok, here is the deal. It occurred to me during the recent deflationary situation in which the system appeared to be self correcting instead of actually going super inflationary like some people predicted.

Then it dawned on me that the goods and services situation of capitalism has no fact in basis of the economy. It is quite possible that we have reached the capability of a technological singularity without actually knowing.

And in fact the only reason we aren't in a depression is because our energy and production output could actually supply every single human on this planet with everything we so desire.

And why not? Simply because capitalism as it and humans could not comprehend such a situation. Which occurred to me that capitalism, credit, and the stock market will continue to exist long after machines are intelligent enough to handle everything.

Most likely so will politics... Simply because humans are unwillingly to change their paradigm.

At the same time, the only reason those will the massive amounts of power (say political and capital wise) still deal with the reason of us is they are simply too dumb to realize they could buy islands and not have anything to do with us.

What am I getting at? Nothing really... I'm just saying that the system doesn't need itself to exist and I'm voting Obama anyways because fate usually favors the people I vote for because I'm special when it comes to the universe.

Date: 2008-11-01 12:06 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile]
And not to Godwin this, but Mr. Hitler was inspirational.

And in the grand scheme of things... Apophis should be a national if not global priority.

Its going to be rather stupid if we all die with national health care.

Date: 2008-11-01 06:03 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile]
I do understand where the cynicism comes from. However, I've been cynical for a very long time, and I'm quite sure I'll be cynical again in the future. Enthusiasm, however, is a rare thing for me, especially when it concerns politics. And so I really get pissed off when the other cynics try to rain on my once in a decade (or perhaps once in a lifetime) parade! Dammit, if we are still going to hell in a handbasket, I'm sure I'll recognize that eventually. In the meantime, shut up and let me enjoy the ride!

Date: 2008-11-03 02:44 am (UTC)


scottopic: (Default)

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